Masechet Chullin Daf 14
Dec. 11th, 2018 02:36 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
seekingferretDaf 14
Complicated subject matter today and it's not even complete with its question.
The Mishna says that although shechita on Shabbos and Yom Kippur is assur, the meat of such a shechita is still kosher. Which is intuitively bizarre, but I think is consistent with it being established that shechita does not require kavana. But it does pose a problem for the Rabbis because they're concerned about moral hazard. So in the Gemara immediately after this Mishna, Rav prohibits eating the meat on Shabbos or Yom Kippur by declaring it muktze.
Muktze is a Rabbinic category of prohibition of touch that some objects have on Shabbat as a mechanism to prevent people from doing prohibited melacha. The classic example is something like a pen. There is nothing normal you can do with a pen on Shabbat that would not be mechalel Shabbos, since the function of a pen is to write with and writing on Shabbos is assur, therefore a pen is muktze and you are Rabbinically forbidden to touch a pen on Shabbos.
Okay, maybe this helps address the problem of moral hazard. You shechted the animal on Shabbos, it exists as a properly shechted, kosher animal so there's no halakhic reason why you can't eat it, but it's muktze so you can't immediately benefit from the shechitah. Sort of a solution. Of course, doing melacha on Shabbos is chayav misa anyway, so it's strange to imagine someone violating Shabbos d'oraysa and then caring about whether or not they transgressed the d'rabbanan issur of muktze, but Rabbi Elefant describes a variety of approaches in the commentators to this problem- maybe it's a case where they shechted in private and there were no witnesses, so they aren't exactly chayav misa.... and the explanations get more straw-grasping from there.
Anyway, I just discussed the first two lines of the daf. The rest is a really tricky tangent exploring where Rav derived that Rabbi Yehuda had a ruling that supported adding this prohibition. There are a lot of different sub-categories of muktze and a lot of complicated rules about when something becomes muktze and a lot of Tannaic disagreement about the parameters, and we traipse through a whole bunch of it and by the end of the daf don't have a conclusion to the original question. Maybe tomorrow I'll try to explain the whole thing.
Complicated subject matter today and it's not even complete with its question.
The Mishna says that although shechita on Shabbos and Yom Kippur is assur, the meat of such a shechita is still kosher. Which is intuitively bizarre, but I think is consistent with it being established that shechita does not require kavana. But it does pose a problem for the Rabbis because they're concerned about moral hazard. So in the Gemara immediately after this Mishna, Rav prohibits eating the meat on Shabbos or Yom Kippur by declaring it muktze.
Muktze is a Rabbinic category of prohibition of touch that some objects have on Shabbat as a mechanism to prevent people from doing prohibited melacha. The classic example is something like a pen. There is nothing normal you can do with a pen on Shabbat that would not be mechalel Shabbos, since the function of a pen is to write with and writing on Shabbos is assur, therefore a pen is muktze and you are Rabbinically forbidden to touch a pen on Shabbos.
Okay, maybe this helps address the problem of moral hazard. You shechted the animal on Shabbos, it exists as a properly shechted, kosher animal so there's no halakhic reason why you can't eat it, but it's muktze so you can't immediately benefit from the shechitah. Sort of a solution. Of course, doing melacha on Shabbos is chayav misa anyway, so it's strange to imagine someone violating Shabbos d'oraysa and then caring about whether or not they transgressed the d'rabbanan issur of muktze, but Rabbi Elefant describes a variety of approaches in the commentators to this problem- maybe it's a case where they shechted in private and there were no witnesses, so they aren't exactly chayav misa.... and the explanations get more straw-grasping from there.
Anyway, I just discussed the first two lines of the daf. The rest is a really tricky tangent exploring where Rav derived that Rabbi Yehuda had a ruling that supported adding this prohibition. There are a lot of different sub-categories of muktze and a lot of complicated rules about when something becomes muktze and a lot of Tannaic disagreement about the parameters, and we traipse through a whole bunch of it and by the end of the daf don't have a conclusion to the original question. Maybe tomorrow I'll try to explain the whole thing.
(no subject)
Date: 2018-12-11 09:09 pm (UTC)one possible explanation for this prohibition: someone is willing to shecht on shabbat for the benefit of others, but either:
a) other people would be eating it without knowing when it was shechted, but the would-be shochet is unwilling to make observant people handle muktzeh inadvertently
b) other people might be going "oh well if it's already here I might as well eat it", thereby encouraging him to continue to shecht on shabbat. if they won't touch the meat, he might also come to stop.
(no subject)
Date: 2018-12-11 09:12 pm (UTC)they post such gems as:
One threw a knife, very skilled;
Sliced the throat of a cow, which it killed.
Hit the wall. Then, rebounding,
Finished shechting. Astounding!
Said Rav Natan, “It’s kosher!” I’m thrilled!
(no subject)
Date: 2018-12-11 09:14 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2018-12-11 09:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2018-12-12 03:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2018-12-12 04:40 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2018-12-12 12:09 am (UTC)Todah rabbah.
(no subject)
Date: 2018-12-12 04:40 am (UTC)