Masechet Chullin Daf 61
Jan. 30th, 2019 08:39 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
seekingferretDaf 61
The Gemara resumes discussion of the kashrut of birds. As previously noted, the Torah lists 24 nonkosher birds, and anything not listed is kosher. I've contrasted the two approaches the Torah takes to identifying kosher and nonkosher creatures- either you list all the possibilities, or you create a general rule that anyone can apply. They both have flaws.
But the Gemara really has a more sophisticated toolkit than just these two approaches, as is demonstrated here. The Gemara has a variety of ways of hybridizing the two approaches: the result is essentially, in some form or another, A General Rule + Exceptions to the Rule. And the Gemara has a set of exegetical principles for how to understand A General Rule + Exceptions to the Rule. One such principle that comes up today is that if the Torah lists one item with certain unusual properties, it's doing so to demonstrate an Exception, but if it lists two or more items with an unusual property, it's doing so to demonstrate a General Rule.
This is how the Gemara understands the list of birds. Well, okay, one more point of order first. In addition to the base list of 24 nonkosher birds, the Torah identies two kosher birds. I've talked about them before- the Tor and the Yonah, the Turtledove and the Pigeon/Rock Dove. The Gemara considers the possibility that these are the only kosher birds, but dismisses this quickly. But importantly, the discussion of the Tor and the Yonah brings up four key ways in which the Tor and Yonah are contrasted to the Nesher, which will become the defining characteristics of the General Rule for kosher birds.
These characteristics don't come from anywhere in the Torah. There's no verse identifying them. And there are surely other differences between the birds. Certainly superficial differences, but probably substantive ones as well. There's just a tradition that these are the four characteristics that matter.
The characteristics are 1) Has an additional, distintive toe. 2) Has a crop. 3) Has a gizzard that can be peeled. 3) Does not claw its prey. The Tor and Yonah have all these characteristics. The Nesher has none of them.
It emerges through an iterative discussion that the other 23 nonkosher species have some but not all of these characteristics. Most have three kosher simanim and one nonkosher siman, one- the oref- has two kosher simanim and two nonkosher simanim. And two have one kosher siman and three nonkosher simanim- a different siman in each case. The Gemara attempts to construct a general rule at each iteration- that a bird with only one kosher sign is kosher, that a bird with two kosher simanim is kosher, that a bird with three kosher simanim is kosher, but because of this distribution, and some complicated nuances of Talmudic interpretative canon that I barely follow and not well enough to explain, it fails. So ultimately the rule is that a bird with four kosher simanim is kosher definitively. A bird with zero of the four kosher simanim is nonkosher definitively. A bird with one, two, or three kosher simanim is kosher unless it is one of the exceptions on the list.
A note about the list: The Torah's idea of species, or min, is not the modern Linnaean/Post-Linnaean conception. Multiple similar modern species might be counted as a single Torah min, Multiple breeds of the same modern species might be considered as belonging to different Torah minim. So when we say 24 species, we're not conclusively saying 24 species. And crucially, if we knew 24 specific modern species that were definitively unkosher, that would not mean that we could just assume that any modern species we found that wasn't on our list was kosher- it's possible that the new bird species was part of an existing nonkosher min.
For this reason, the general principle modern poskim apply is that a newly discovered bird is not permitted to be eaten unless we have a communal tradition that it's a kosher bird. Which does not explain why the turkey is kosher. It's apparently a comedy of errors.
The Gemara resumes discussion of the kashrut of birds. As previously noted, the Torah lists 24 nonkosher birds, and anything not listed is kosher. I've contrasted the two approaches the Torah takes to identifying kosher and nonkosher creatures- either you list all the possibilities, or you create a general rule that anyone can apply. They both have flaws.
But the Gemara really has a more sophisticated toolkit than just these two approaches, as is demonstrated here. The Gemara has a variety of ways of hybridizing the two approaches: the result is essentially, in some form or another, A General Rule + Exceptions to the Rule. And the Gemara has a set of exegetical principles for how to understand A General Rule + Exceptions to the Rule. One such principle that comes up today is that if the Torah lists one item with certain unusual properties, it's doing so to demonstrate an Exception, but if it lists two or more items with an unusual property, it's doing so to demonstrate a General Rule.
This is how the Gemara understands the list of birds. Well, okay, one more point of order first. In addition to the base list of 24 nonkosher birds, the Torah identies two kosher birds. I've talked about them before- the Tor and the Yonah, the Turtledove and the Pigeon/Rock Dove. The Gemara considers the possibility that these are the only kosher birds, but dismisses this quickly. But importantly, the discussion of the Tor and the Yonah brings up four key ways in which the Tor and Yonah are contrasted to the Nesher, which will become the defining characteristics of the General Rule for kosher birds.
These characteristics don't come from anywhere in the Torah. There's no verse identifying them. And there are surely other differences between the birds. Certainly superficial differences, but probably substantive ones as well. There's just a tradition that these are the four characteristics that matter.
The characteristics are 1) Has an additional, distintive toe. 2) Has a crop. 3) Has a gizzard that can be peeled. 3) Does not claw its prey. The Tor and Yonah have all these characteristics. The Nesher has none of them.
It emerges through an iterative discussion that the other 23 nonkosher species have some but not all of these characteristics. Most have three kosher simanim and one nonkosher siman, one- the oref- has two kosher simanim and two nonkosher simanim. And two have one kosher siman and three nonkosher simanim- a different siman in each case. The Gemara attempts to construct a general rule at each iteration- that a bird with only one kosher sign is kosher, that a bird with two kosher simanim is kosher, that a bird with three kosher simanim is kosher, but because of this distribution, and some complicated nuances of Talmudic interpretative canon that I barely follow and not well enough to explain, it fails. So ultimately the rule is that a bird with four kosher simanim is kosher definitively. A bird with zero of the four kosher simanim is nonkosher definitively. A bird with one, two, or three kosher simanim is kosher unless it is one of the exceptions on the list.
A note about the list: The Torah's idea of species, or min, is not the modern Linnaean/Post-Linnaean conception. Multiple similar modern species might be counted as a single Torah min, Multiple breeds of the same modern species might be considered as belonging to different Torah minim. So when we say 24 species, we're not conclusively saying 24 species. And crucially, if we knew 24 specific modern species that were definitively unkosher, that would not mean that we could just assume that any modern species we found that wasn't on our list was kosher- it's possible that the new bird species was part of an existing nonkosher min.
For this reason, the general principle modern poskim apply is that a newly discovered bird is not permitted to be eaten unless we have a communal tradition that it's a kosher bird. Which does not explain why the turkey is kosher. It's apparently a comedy of errors.
(no subject)
Date: 2019-01-30 11:17 pm (UTC)So explorers on an alien planet would not be allowed to eat birds unless they could justify them as different enough from Earth birds that they are not really birds?
(In the modern day, how is the question of genetic splicing treated? Creates a new species, not okay? OK if there are no strains from non-kosher species?)
(no subject)
Date: 2019-01-31 03:19 pm (UTC)Gene splicing is a complicated question. Some think it may be forbidden altogether as kilayim, some think it doesn't count as kilayim. Even if it is kilayim, one is allowed to eat food that has been so grafted provided it is otherwise kosher, as long as one was not involved in its creation. Rabbi Elefant in his shiur on Daf 62 raised the question of modifying a pig so that it had the kosher simanim in terms of the debate between Rashi and Tosafos about whether it's the simanim themselves that make an animal kosher or if they are merely signs that the species is kosher.