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Maseches Shabbos Daf 17
Jun. 7th, 2020 06:54 pmDaf 17
Foodstuffs when still on the plant are not susceptible to tumah. Once you harvest them, they are not susceptible to tumah until they are intentionally wetted with one of seven liquids, this is all delved into in greater depth in other Masechtos. Here, we're still in the Eighteen Enactments of Beis Shammai.
If you harvest grapes, says Shammai, the grapes become susceptible to tumah as soon as they are harvested. Why? Because when you harvest you may squeeze one of the grapes, letting out grape juice, which is one of the seven liquids. That grape juice renders the grapes susceptible to tumah, except wait, it doesn't. Because for the food to become susceptible to tumah, you have to intend for the water to come in contact with the food. So as long as you are trying to not squeeze on the grapes, you should be fine. But comes Shammai and adds a gezeirah saying that even in this case, it still becomes susceptible to tumah.
Why? Says Zeiri in the name of R' Chanina, because of the fear that someone might collect the grapes in a waterproof container. The waterproof sealed container, lined with pitch, indicates an intention or at least an awareness that if you squeeze grapes, you'll be collecting the juice. Since you are acting in a way that collects the juice, you have intention to expose water to the grapes, so they become susceptible to tumah. But since a waterproof basket is not so different from an ordinary basket, so that someone might accidentally grab the waterproof basket, they made the gezeirah. There's a couple other reasons given which are harder for me to explain so I'll skip them.
The Mishnah says that Hillel asked Shammai why he didn't seek to impose a similar gezeirah on olives, since olive oil is similarly one of the seven liquids. Shammai says "If you keep pissing me off, I will add a gezeirah on olives, don't test me!" Hillel then stands quiet and the gezeirah is imposed, but the Mishnai says that this day was as bad as the day of the Golden Calf because it saw a fight between Hillel and Shammai, and that because of the bad feelings, Israel didn't actually follow the gezeirah until a generation later Beis Shammai made it one of the Eighteen Enactments when they had a majority.
I'm fascinated by many things here. I'm fascinated that this is entirely presented as an argument not L'shem shamayim, that for whatever reason Hillel and Shammai and their students let their emotions get the better of them and let pride and haughtiness get in the way of serving Torah.
But I'm also fascinated by the threat of a stricter gezeirah for asking the question. This is something you see fairly often as a matter of practical halacha. There may be some obscure detail of a gezeirah set down in the Shulchan Aruch that most of Orthodox Jewry in some way doesn't uphold, and there's no halachic text overturning the gezeirah or explaining why it doesn't apply in this circumstance..People just didn't want to do it, so they stopped doing it. You'll sometimes see scholarly people when asked about these details say things like "You don't actually want to ask that question." As long as the popular minhag is a certain way, sometimes going through and learning the halachic tradition in detail is dangerous, it'll make you realize that everyone's apparently been doing it wrong, and that's not necessarily good for the community. This is not an Orthodox approach to Torah law, but as an approach to Rabbinic law it has good precedents, not least of which is this one. If Rabbi Hillel stood silent rather than risk adding a gezeirah on olive oil harvesting, we're in good company seeking to uphold popular minhagim even when they contradict past Rabbinic law.
The end of the page ends the discussion of the Eighteen Enactments of Beis Shammai and starts the next Mishnah, which is on a disagreement between Beis HIllel and Beis Shammai about whether you can start certain processes that will continue running over Shabbos untouched. For example, if I mix a batch of dye on Shabbos, that's a melacha. But if I start mixing a batch of dye before Shabbos, and the mixing process requires the dye to sit for twelve hours, or thirty six hours, to cure before it's ready to use, can I let it continue to sit over Shabbos? Beis Shammai says no, Beis Hillel says yes. More on this on the next daf.
Foodstuffs when still on the plant are not susceptible to tumah. Once you harvest them, they are not susceptible to tumah until they are intentionally wetted with one of seven liquids, this is all delved into in greater depth in other Masechtos. Here, we're still in the Eighteen Enactments of Beis Shammai.
If you harvest grapes, says Shammai, the grapes become susceptible to tumah as soon as they are harvested. Why? Because when you harvest you may squeeze one of the grapes, letting out grape juice, which is one of the seven liquids. That grape juice renders the grapes susceptible to tumah, except wait, it doesn't. Because for the food to become susceptible to tumah, you have to intend for the water to come in contact with the food. So as long as you are trying to not squeeze on the grapes, you should be fine. But comes Shammai and adds a gezeirah saying that even in this case, it still becomes susceptible to tumah.
Why? Says Zeiri in the name of R' Chanina, because of the fear that someone might collect the grapes in a waterproof container. The waterproof sealed container, lined with pitch, indicates an intention or at least an awareness that if you squeeze grapes, you'll be collecting the juice. Since you are acting in a way that collects the juice, you have intention to expose water to the grapes, so they become susceptible to tumah. But since a waterproof basket is not so different from an ordinary basket, so that someone might accidentally grab the waterproof basket, they made the gezeirah. There's a couple other reasons given which are harder for me to explain so I'll skip them.
The Mishnah says that Hillel asked Shammai why he didn't seek to impose a similar gezeirah on olives, since olive oil is similarly one of the seven liquids. Shammai says "If you keep pissing me off, I will add a gezeirah on olives, don't test me!" Hillel then stands quiet and the gezeirah is imposed, but the Mishnai says that this day was as bad as the day of the Golden Calf because it saw a fight between Hillel and Shammai, and that because of the bad feelings, Israel didn't actually follow the gezeirah until a generation later Beis Shammai made it one of the Eighteen Enactments when they had a majority.
I'm fascinated by many things here. I'm fascinated that this is entirely presented as an argument not L'shem shamayim, that for whatever reason Hillel and Shammai and their students let their emotions get the better of them and let pride and haughtiness get in the way of serving Torah.
But I'm also fascinated by the threat of a stricter gezeirah for asking the question. This is something you see fairly often as a matter of practical halacha. There may be some obscure detail of a gezeirah set down in the Shulchan Aruch that most of Orthodox Jewry in some way doesn't uphold, and there's no halachic text overturning the gezeirah or explaining why it doesn't apply in this circumstance..People just didn't want to do it, so they stopped doing it. You'll sometimes see scholarly people when asked about these details say things like "You don't actually want to ask that question." As long as the popular minhag is a certain way, sometimes going through and learning the halachic tradition in detail is dangerous, it'll make you realize that everyone's apparently been doing it wrong, and that's not necessarily good for the community. This is not an Orthodox approach to Torah law, but as an approach to Rabbinic law it has good precedents, not least of which is this one. If Rabbi Hillel stood silent rather than risk adding a gezeirah on olive oil harvesting, we're in good company seeking to uphold popular minhagim even when they contradict past Rabbinic law.
The end of the page ends the discussion of the Eighteen Enactments of Beis Shammai and starts the next Mishnah, which is on a disagreement between Beis HIllel and Beis Shammai about whether you can start certain processes that will continue running over Shabbos untouched. For example, if I mix a batch of dye on Shabbos, that's a melacha. But if I start mixing a batch of dye before Shabbos, and the mixing process requires the dye to sit for twelve hours, or thirty six hours, to cure before it's ready to use, can I let it continue to sit over Shabbos? Beis Shammai says no, Beis Hillel says yes. More on this on the next daf.